Tuesday, February 8, 2011

Phone timeline

http://jeremybamber.com/forum/index.php?topic=224.0

I read that Jeremy left about 10 pm.

Jeremy allegedly rang Julie Mugford around 9.50 on the evening of 6 August, but he was supposed to be at the farm at that time so I'm not sure about that.

He rang her again at some time in the early hours. There was some confusion about that though. Julie said it was between 3 and 3.30 am - she had to ring her flatmate to ask what time he had phoned. One of her flat mates said it was around 3.12 am or possibly 3.20, and she also said she kept her clock ten minutes fast. Another flatmate said it was between 2 and 3 am. The stories seemed to change a lot and vary between 3 and 3.30 - that's probably the closest anyone can get.

There was the alleged phone call to Jeremy from the farm. It's not clear when that was suppose to be received by Jeremy. He phoned the police at around 3.26 - probably a couple of minutes earlier. There are claims that he rang at 3.36, but that's in dispute as well.

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Julie Mugfords first witness statement, clearly states that Jeremy called her at 3:30am, which was after Jeremy had received the call from his dad at about 3:25am. Ralph called the police at 3:26am, and used the words describing his daughters actions at the scene, including the fact that his daughter had got one on "My" guns. Later, when the nature of the investigation changed, from SC/688/85 (four murders and a suicide) into SC/786/85 (five murders) DS Jones, got Sheila to make a new statement saying that Jeremy called her at 3:15am, which helped to displace the time of Jeremy's call to Julie, to an earlier time before Ralph made his call to the police at 3:26am...

This was done, to try and suggest that Jeremy had phoned Julie, before the timing of the first call made to the police at 3:26am, whereas Jeremy actually made the call to Julie, at about 3:30am, which was after Ralph Called Jeremy at 3:25am, and after Ralph called the police at 3:26am - Jeremy's own call to the police was made at 3:36am, in which Jeremy informs the police that he received a call from his dad who informed him that his sister had got the gun and that she was going crazy...

The truth of the matter is, that Ralph called Jeremy at about 3:25am, and that the line was interrupted, and Jeremy kept trying to re-establish contact with his dad at the farm, but kept getting the engaged tone. In the mean time, Ralph called the police at 3:26am, which would help to explain why Jeremy was getting the engaged tone, and why the line went dead after his father imparted words to him alerting him to what was developing at the scene. Whilst Jeremy was trying to re-establish contact with his dad at whf, Ralph was busy talking to the police from 3:26am...

By 3:30am, Jeremy called Julie and told her that there was something wrong at the farm - but Mugford allegedly told Jeremy to go back to bed...

At 3:36am, Jeremy called the police , and at 3:45am, he was instructed by the police to go to whf and meet police officers, who had already been dispatched to the scene...

This is not speculation, these are hard facts, which can be backed up by evidence which the CCRC have got access to, and which no amount of speculation will or can alter...Mike Tesko


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A blogger talking sense

Sorry but I don't believe that Neville called the police at all. I've explained why I think that, and I've even transcribed the police log. I think it's possible that Jeremy called Julie at around 3.30 though - she and her flatmates were very vague about it all.


Mike Tesko asks...
PC West did not mention getting two calls about the same incident. Don't you think he would have done?

Ok, then we will approach it from  a different perspective, why did the police make two different records, about the same phone call, referring to two different times, and including details which make mention of Mr Bambers "daughter" getting hold of one of "my" guns,  whilst Jeremy's call refers to his "sister" getting hold of "the" gun?

Why is there "a difference in the age of the daughter", or "the sister", in both accounts?

Clearly, these two different police records cannot relate to the same phone call...

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BLOGGER REPLIES


One log was written by PC West, and the other was written by Malcolm Bonnet. PC West took the call from Jeremy, and then he contacted Malcolm Bonnet so action could be taken. You have to remember that Jeremy was talking about his sister but he was also quoting his father, and he probably told PC West that Sheila was Neville's daughter - hence the interchangeable descriptions. Try to imagine a police officer trying to listen and also making notes about what he said at the same time. Then try to imagine Malcolm Bonnet doing the same when he was speaking to PC West. No wonder there were slight differences.

You really have to explain that line at the end of the 3.26 call where Malcolm Bonnet writes down that the message was passed on by Mr Bamber's son. You keep ignoring that bit.

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BLOGGER insists...I agree there is no evidence of more than one call..this is Mike Tesko spin...


Only one call was taken at Chelmsford police station - the one recorded by PC West, and then he phoned Malcolm Bonnet in the information room who logged what PC West told him. There is no evidence that PC West received two calls - one from Jeremy and one from Neville. Until I see evidence of a second log made by PC West, I will think that there was only one call - the one from Jeremy.

There is no record of a 999 call.


------

Mike Tesko

I do not for one moment believe that the clock in the control room at police head quarters was ten minutes fast, or slow, or vice versa - This is just an excuse to try and marry both calls as being one and the same, it does not explain or go any way towards explaining, the different references to Daughter and sister, and My gun, and the gun, and the age differences in both accounts, or the fact that in one is the telephone number of whf, and in the other the telephone number of Jeremy's cottage, 9 Head street, Goldhanger...

The claim that the control room clock was ten minutes fast does not deal with the very serious discrepancies involved between both of the records relating to these two differently timed telephone calls, one from Ralph Bamber (3:26am), and the other from Jeremy (3:36am)...

If the control room clock was ten minutes fast, at what time did the occupants of CA07, CA06, and the other police vehicles, arrive at whf?

Blogger

This is what PC West wrote down after he received the call from Jeremy.


Quote
Father phoned (aged 62)
"please come over your sister has gone crazy + has the gun". Phone went dead.

Father Mr Bamber N/A
Whitehouse Farm, Tolleshunt D'arcy. Tel Mald 860209
Sister Sheila Bamber aged 27

This is what Malcolm Bonnet in the information room wrote down after PC West called him.

Quote
Daughter gone berserk

Mr Bamber
White House Fm
Tolleshunt D'arcy

Daughter Sheila Bamber aged 26 years has got hold of one of my guns.

Message passed to CD by the son of Mr Bamber after the phone went dead. Mr Bamber has a collection of shotguns and .410s.

Some people think that the log by Malcolm Bonnet referred to a call directly from Neville, but I think it referred to the call from Jeremy to PC West.

Note the bit in bold. Malcolm Bonnet was clearly indicating that the phone call he was writing about was the one from Jeremy to PC West.

The whole problem arose because PC West wrote on his log that the call came at 3.36. Malcolm Bonnet logged PC West's call to him at 3.26. It was accepted at the trial that PC misread the time and really meant 3.26.
-------

Mike Tesko..
We will now get the facts right, so that there can be no misunderstanding:-

 at Jeremy's trial, only one phone record which was disclosed, or referred to, was the one which refers to the call made to the police by Jeremy, timed at 3:36am, where he mentions that he was contacted by his father, who told him that his sister, had got hold of the gun, and that she had gone crazy...

The other log (relating to Ralph's call to the police, timed at 3:26am) was not disclosed or mentioned at all...

The prosecution then sought to introduce the new evidence of Julie Mugford, after she changed or altered the timing of Jeremy's call on the morning of the incident from 3:30am, and  who was now saying that Jeremy had called her at 3:15am...

It would appear to the court, and did appear to the court which was trying Jeremy for these murders,  that if Jeremy was calling Julie at 3:15am, why did Jeremy wait until 3:36am, before calling the police?

The other police record which outlines and lays bear the facts of Ralph's call to the police, was not disclosed, or mentioned, or referred to, - if it had been the cat would have been out of the bag, and the prosecutions case would have shot itself in the foot...
--------

Blogger

PC West wrote down Jeremy's address and phone number in the box labelled "sender" because he's the one who called. The police always ask for your address and phone number if you call them.

He also wrote down the phone number of the farm, and so did Malcolm Bonnet - because PC West told him the phone number. I did notice that PC West wrote down the area code as Maldon, and Malcolm Bonnet wrote "cm" which I presume means Chelmsford, but that could just be a mistake. The age difference could be a mistake too. Remember that PC West was telling Bonnet this by phone.

The references to the gun or my gun, sister, daughter, etc were just the result of Jeremy quoting his father and then PC West trying to quote what Jeremy had told him.

The clock in the room where PC West took the call was either fast or he misread it. It wasn't PC West who sent out the cars - it was Malcolm Bonnet. The first car was sent at 3.35 - perfectly reasonable because Bonnet received the information at 3.26.
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The sequence and timing of telephone calls on the morning of 7th August is critical.

The "outside" world knows nothing about the events in White House Farm until it is effectively notified.

The "outside" world, given the verdict of the original trial, does not necessarily include Jeremy as the court beleived he would have "known" about the events in White House Farm when the telephone calls to the Police were made.

However, if we assume Jeremy is innocent and thus has no knowledge of the events unfolding at White House Farm.

Mike, in an earlier posting on this subject, confirmed Jeremy received at 3.25 am a telephone call from Neville Bamber who was at White House Farm. This has been indicated as a fact although this time could still be an approximate time if I have misunderstood Mike's posting.

Having received a call at 3.25 am, I have assumed Jeremy would have been woken by the telephone call from Neville Bamber. Words are confirmed to have been spoken but the telephone call for some reason was cut short. Jeremy then tries to repeatedly to call back White House Farm but only gets the engaged tone.

It has been explained, in earlier posts, that this would be because Neville Bamber is talking to the Police re the "Daughter gone beserk" telephone log.

If this is correct then this would be at 3.26 am when the "first" telphone call was being received by the Police. The "outside" world could thus only know about the events at White House Farm at the earliest by either 3.25 am or 3.26 am depending upon Jeremy's innocence.

If Julie had been made aware that there were things unfolding at White House Farm before 3.25 am then this would be before the "outside" world could have possibly known of anything untoward happening at White House Farm.

Thus, the sequence and times of telephone calls on the morning of 7th August is of critical importance particularly as there appears to also be some dispute about  the time Julie received the telephone call from Jeremy. I understand different times have been mentioned by the coinhabitants at Julie's residence in London.

Does anyone know the alledged disputed times of the telephone call from Jeremy to Julie according to the coinhabitants of Julie's residence in London?




Offline bb2010

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2011, 09:34:AM »
Isn't the issue, regardless of timings, that the only 'proof' that Ralph made a call at all is that Jeremy said he did?

The scenarios are

Ralph calls police: Not verified by police
Ralph calls Jeremy: Verification from Jeremy
Jeremy calls Julie: Both sides verify
Jeremy calls police: Both sides verify



Online Kaldin

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2011, 10:08:AM »
I'm not sure what curiousessex is trying to establish here - is he trying to establish the time of Jeremy's call to the police?

Jeremy says he called Julie before he called the police. He has no real reason to lie about that. In fact it shows him in rather a bad light because the natural thing would have been to call the police first.

If the timing of the call to Julie could be established beyond doubt, that would cast more light on whether Jeremy called the police at 3.26 or 3.36. Is that right?

The trouble is that neither Julie or her flatmates are absolutely sure about when he phoned.

I don't know if there are witness statements available but there is a huge amount of stuff about the timing of his call to Julie in the Appeal Document - have a look at it if you have the time and patience.  ;D

The relevant bits are paras 101 - 104, and 289 - 330.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2002/2912.htm

The reason I am trying to understand and generate some clarity on the subject of the sequence and timings of the telephone calls on the morning of 7th August is because these calls in essence establish Jeremy's alibi.

I think most will agree the way the investigation progressed is very questionable. Hence independent verification of the telephone calls on the morning of 7th August becomes key.

Hypothetically why is it not the case that, for instance, Jeremy could have made both calls to the Police. The one at 3.26 am and the one at 3.36 am. Dialling 999 in the first instance at 3.26 am as a "Neville Bamber" to report "Daughter gone beserk" (Jeremy would have known both the address at White House Farm and the telephone number at White House Farm or was there electronic confirmation that the 3.26 am call was received from the White House Farm telephone number). Having dialled 999 at 3.26 am, hypothetically, a further telephone call could have been made to Chelmsford Police Station at 3.36 am, having looked up the telephone number in the directory. This further telephone call being the report of the receiving of a telephone call from Neville Bamber who was at White House Farm. (Jeremy would have known both the address at Goldhanger and the telephone number at Goldhanger or was there electronic confirmation that the 3.36 am call was received from the Goldhanger telephone number). - Such a hypothetical scenario would create the impression of two telephone calls by two individuals from two locations to the Police regarding the same activities at White House Farm.

Mike has detailed as a fact, earlier in the postings, that Jeremy called Julie at 3.30 am which is between both 3.26 am and 3.36 am for which both sides verify although there may be a question over the timing of this call.

So you're speculating that Jeremy made a 999 call at 3.26 from his own house and pretended to be Neville. He then phoned Julie at 3.30 in order to convince her and others that he couldn't possibly be at the farm shooting everyone because he was on the phone to Julie. He then phoned Chelmsford police station at 3.36 and said his father had rung him.

I don't think that happened for the reasons I've already given - that I think the two logs referred to same call, but in all this I find it quite strange that Jeremy rang Julie at all. What did he expect her to do about it? There is some mileage in your suggestion that he was trying to create some kind of alibi but wouldn't he have stressed to her what time it was?

I've not seen evidence that Ralph made a call at all

Jeremy said that Ralph called him
Jeremy did call the police, that is verified by the police

At some later stage (I don't know when) a police log appears that purports to show that the police had received a call from Ralph. Jeremy seeks to rely on this log as proof that he was at home and Ralph was in the Farmhouse calling the police.

Throughout this thread, Kaldin has shown that the police log does not show that Ralph made a call

Offline Pete0001

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2011, 11:53:AM »
Well I hope they (Jeremys legal team) have a log the clearly states Neville made a call to the Police..

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2011, 01:11:PM »
From the appeal document -
Quote
PC West recorded the time of the appellant's call as 3.36 a.m. At trial it was accepted that the officer had misread a digital clock. The officer's contact with Mr Bonnett was recorded as being at 3.26 a.m. and it seems clear that the appellant's call must have been at 3.26 a.m. or very shortly before.


So is there undisputable evidence that there was 2 calls, one by Jeremy and one by Neville and not just as explained above that the PC made a time error and on looking back at notes etc realised that it was impossible that Mr Bonnett could have been informed about the call before the call was taken as the incorrect time would show on exmination.
I'm not saying the appeal paragraph about is correct.. but it is a very easy error to make that people make every day.. misreading a number, transposing a figure.

The other suggestion is that he lied about one call and then proceeded to cover up this lie... BIG gamble when at that stage of the scene there was no question of incompetance on behalf of the Police and framing. He was just responding to a call.. nothing strange.

No. There is no evidence there were two calls, only some evidence that two different times were logged for one call. Perhaps PC West filled in all the details on the log before he put the time in, so by then it was ten minutes later. He looked at the clock and put the time in.

There is no reason for PC West to lie - well I can't think of a reason.

The other point about the bit you quoted from the appeal document is that it's clear that the 3.26 log of Malcolm Bonnet was referred to in the original trial, and yet Mike has said that log was not at the court. That seems odd to me - that a document which evidence was relied on was not in court. Even if it wasn't in court surely the defence would have asked to see it.

The other point is that if Jeremy is relying on these two logs to get him off, I think he needs to think carefully about that. I'm not a judge with many years experience and even I can see the flaws in the argument. I think the judges will too.

Offline bb2010

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2011, 01:24:PM »
The evidence Jeremy is relying on is on his website http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/alibis-1

Online Kaldin

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2011, 02:26:PM »
The evidence Jeremy is relying on is on his website http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/alibis-1

So he's relying on the same thing that Mike is relying on - that the judges will believe there were two calls. I think he will fail unless they can come up with another log made by PC West or Malcolm Bonnet to show there were two calls.

Offline Newbury1

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2011, 02:38:PM »
Jeremy, and his legal team, have presented other evidence to the CCRC and will not simply be relying on this one issue

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2011, 02:45:PM »
Jeremy, and his legal team, have presented other evidence to the CCRC and will not simply be relying on this one issue

I understand that. There is also the issue of the mantlepiece scratches, and the issue of the "fresh" blood on Sheila's body. Are there any others?

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2011, 03:01:PM »
I must admit I do find this bit interesting.

Quote
In his 8th August 1985 statement he says "I then spoke again to Mr Bamber and told him that a police car was attending his fathers address from Witham. I also asked him to attend and liase with police officers on his arrival, this he agreed to do" The car which had already been dispatched as a result of Nevill's call to the police was sent at 3.35  (CA07), PC west organized for a second car to be sent - (CA05) which was  owing to Jeremy's call.


http://www.jeremy-bamber.co.uk/alibis-1

It has puzzled me as to why one car was sent from Chelmsford and the other was sent from Whitham.

Offline Newbury1

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2011, 03:03:PM »
The only other main one that comes to mind is the restaging of Sheilas body.

Whilst this itself is not conclusive of JB not being guilty, EP and the CPS presented this at trial as Jeremy's work, when it should have been made clear to the Jury that it was the work of the police.

Mike has previously posted that he has seen a photo showing Sheila on the main bed when SOCO first entered the bedroom and was then moved onto the floor and stage managed by the police with the rifle on top of her. I did ask Mike if the CCRC was aware of this photo however no confirmation was given.

As we have all seen, there appears to be no conclusive evidence either way, but the general position is I feel that the original trial was flawed and in the name of justice a retrial should take place giving both sides a chance to settle this!

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2011, 03:12:PM »
The only other main one that comes to mind is the restaging of Sheilas body.

Whilst this itself is not conclusive of JB not being guilty, EP and the CPS presented this at trial as Jeremy's work, when it should have been made clear to the Jury that it was the work of the police.

Mike has previously posted that he has seen a photo showing Sheila on the main bed when SOCO first entered the bedroom and was then moved onto the floor and stage managed by the police with the rifle on top of her. I did ask Mike if the CCRC was aware of this photo however no confirmation was given.

As we have all seen, there appears to be no conclusive evidence either way, but the general position is I feel that the original trial was flawed and in the name of justice a retrial should take place giving both sides a chance to settle this!

Yes. I think the minor movements of her hand and the gun can be explained. Indeed they were explained in the SOC report.

http://www.freejeremybamber.com/files/P01.pdf

Any other actions by the police need to be explained though. If Sheila's body was indeed on the bed, that changes everything.

Online curiousessex

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Re: Sequence of telephone calls on morning of 7th August
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2011, 04:51:PM »
So having looked at the link to Jeremy's alibi and working backwards in terms of timing.

Jeremy arrives at White House Farm at 3.45 am. Is this the correct time?

Jeremy has driven from Goldhanger to White Houe Farm (Mike has driven the route and I think the video lasts for circa 7 minutes and 17 seconds. So a car journey of 7 minutes would be reasonable given the time of the journey. - The prosecution claimed Jeremy was driving slowly - I beleive Mike's video is driven within the requisite speed limit which would be a reasonable.

If the above is correct the latest Jeremy leaves Goldhanger would be 3.38 am.

At 3.36 am the Police log details of Jeremy reporting he had received a telephone call from Neville Bamber who is at White House Farm. (Mike has stated this telephone call from Neville will have been at 3.25 am). How long would this telephone call last given the details which need to be recorded on the call log?

Between 3.26 am and 3.36 am Jeremy rings Julie Mugford (3.26 am and 3.36 am - time unknown or indispute)

Between no earlier than 3.26 am and / or 3.25 am Jeremy is trying to call back White House Farm , having received a call from White House Farm at 3.25 am which was subsequently cut off.

At 3.25 am Jeremy had received a telephone call from Neville Bamber who is at White House Farm to tell Jeremy that Sheila has got a gun. The telephone call is cut off / disconnected. Jermey tries to return the call to White House Farm. Could it be that Neville Bamber was also trying to call Jeremy back at the same time thus the engaged tone that was experienced by Jeremy. This would be consistent with Neville rhaving decided to ring Jeremy in the first place as opposed to dialling 999. Would it be correct to assume Jeremy was awoken from sleep by this telephone call?