Thursday, February 10, 2011

Could Someone other than Jeremy or Sheila have comitted the murders at WHF?
« on: February 05, 2011, 03:42:PM »
Is it possible that someone other than Jeremy or Sheila could be responsible for the murders that took place at White House Farm? Or is it certain that it can only be either one or the other? I think that there is another person who had motive for the killings, and could have possibly carried them out. I am not going to say that individual's name, obviously, and i am only speculating here. But to me, the person in question is highly suspicious, for a number of reasons.

Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...

Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...




Offline andrea

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and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf



Offline Elizabeth

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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...

Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...

and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf

Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.



Online Kaldin

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That kind of puts paid to the idea that Sheila was alive in the kitchen and then went upstairs and killed herself. It also means the theory of the re-enactment is out of the window.



Offline Elizabeth

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Kaldin, i am having a think about that one ;D. Will get back to you on that.



Offline bb2010

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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...

Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...

and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf

Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.

If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.



Online Kaldin

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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...

Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...

and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf

Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.

If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.

What could have been their motive?



Offline bb2010

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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.

Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.



Offline mike tesko

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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.

Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
------------------------------------------------------------

What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?



Online Kaldin

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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.

Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
------------------------------------------------------------

What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?

I haven't seen those so I don't know what they look like.



Offline bb2010

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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.

Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
------------------------------------------------------------

What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?

I suppose we could look at the Julie Mugford statement which explains the involvement of a third party.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 04:11:PM by bb2010 »



Offline Elizabeth

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If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.

Not necessarily. If Jeremy's case is referred back to the court of appeal, and a fresh investigation is conducted through a retrial, then who knows what else they may uncover and what other charges might be brought against individuals. I am only speculating.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 04:07:PM by Elizabeth »



Offline Elizabeth

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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.

Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
------------------------------------------------------------

What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?

Double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck? What could that possibly indicate, Mike?



Offline Newbury1

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I don't think there was a third person, I think it clouds the issue.

Similarly, Jeremy's current lawyers have not pushed for it - I think it was Di Stefano who spoke of the underworld connections and I don't think it really works.
------------------------------------------------------------

What about double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck - these have never been satisfactorily been explained?

Double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck? What could that possibly indicate, Mike?

Hi Elizabeth, There is more on this subject under a previous post titled "Circular Burn Marks on Back of Ralph Bambers Neck" see page 3. Its an interesting subject and in my view support "another" person theory!

A previous post 1 Feb from me read -

Scenario no. 3

Has a theory ever been put forward on two murders entering whf, JB and an accomplice - one taking the children out the other dealing with the parents, with Shelia then being held and forced into a suicide position?

One using the loaded .22 Anchutz (10 bullets accounted to have been fired from this weapon) at whf and the other using what "Mike Tesko" has previously posted on and refers to as a "unique weapon", this weapon being found in the area by someone shortly after the murders and handed in to the police. Could this weapon have fired the other 15 bullets?

Burn marks on the back of Nevills neck apparently matching the barrel configuration of the unusual .22 rifle barrel over a shotgun barrel.




Offline Sparkfilms

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There was speculation at the time that this was an execution style murder by hitmen. This was one of a number of theories that was being discussed by the locals.

I'm not sure there is anything in it myself.

As far as the drug connections went around Tollesbury back then, from what I'm aware, it was never on the scale of operations that led to the shoot-up in Rettendon some years later.

I find myself visualising proceedings again, and as I do so, it seems a more likely scenario with Shelia at the trigger.

Two hitmen....Shelia in a state of wildness...or cool and calculated Jeremy? Or, a cool and calculated Jeremy accompanied by McDonald?

Second option ticks the most boxes still for me. 







Offline Pete0001

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Your quite right.. the idea that it was either Jeremy or Sheila is just logical speculation... but the Police say Sheila didn't do it (now), JB say's he didn't do it... No reason to think a third isn't possible... but a whole lot of work to introduce now I would think.



Online Kaldin

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Is it possible that someone other than Jeremy or Sheila could be responsible for the murders that took place at White House Farm? Or is it certain that it can only be either one or the other? I think that there is another person who had motive for the killings, and could have possibly carried them out. I am not going to say that individual's name, obviously, and i am only speculating here. But to me, the person in question is highly suspicious, for a number of reasons.

If Neville phoned Jeremy then Sheila did it. If Neville didn't phone Jeremy, then Jeremy did it, or he got someone else to do it. I deduce from that that it must have been either Sheila or Jeremy.



Offline Elizabeth

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Thank you both for your replies!

Quote
If Neville phoned Jeremy then Sheila did it. If Neville didn't phone Jeremy, then Jeremy did it, or he got someone else to do it. I deduce from that that it must have been either Sheila or Jeremy.

I see what you mean, but isn't it possible that a third party could have forced Neville Bamber to make that call to Jeremy, so that Jeremy could then be set up for the murders?



Offline andrea

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or even to get jeremy to the farmhouse then he could have been killed aswell?



Online Kaldin

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Thank you both for your replies!

Quote
If Neville phoned Jeremy then Sheila did it. If Neville didn't phone Jeremy, then Jeremy did it, or he got someone else to do it. I deduce from that that it must have been either Sheila or Jeremy.

I see what you mean, but isn't it possible that a third party could have forced Neville Bamber to make that call to Jeremy, so that Jeremy could then be set up for the murders?

Ooooh, interesting theory - very interesting. Worth thinking about anyway. You mean they got Neville to phone Jeremy to get Jeremy over to the house either to set him up or to kill him too?



Offline andrea

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if there is a posiibility of a third person being responsible, then yeah why not ;D.



Offline andrea

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neville was also growing opium poppies under government license for a pharmaceutical company.So if there was a third person could this have had any significance.just a thought.



Online Kaldin

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if there is a posiibility of a third person being responsible, then yeah why not ;D.

Hmmmmm, this is most interesting. So if Jeremy had been killed too, who would profit from that?

If the aim was to get Jeremy to the house and set him up, who would profit from that? Several people I suppose, but to speculate could be libellous.

There is a sticking point in this theory though. If there was a third party and they wanted to get Jeremy over to the house for whatever reason, would they have made Neville say that Sheila had a gun? They couldn't know how Jeremy would react to that - I would think it would have made him too scared to go over on his own, and they couldn't discount the possibility of him calling the police. Would they not have come up with something which would be more likely to get him over there?



Offline andrea

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and also, a third person would have had to have knowledge of june and sheilas religious beliefs, as the bible is heavily involved.



Offline Elizabeth

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Quote from: andrea on Today at 04:35 PM
Quote
neville was also growing opium poppies under government license for a pharmaceutical company.So if there was a third person could this have had any significance.just a thought.

Oh, i didn't know that. Interesting!

Well, yes, Someone could have forced Neville to call Jeremy, hoping he would get to the farmhouse before the police. I didn't mean "for them to kill him", but to set him up for the murders. Also, i wasn't meaning an "unknown" person, but rather, someone closer to home.



Offline andrea

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like i said in my earlier post if there was a 3rd person they would have known about the religious beliefs of june an d sheila with the bible being heavily involved, and only a person closer to home would know that. i think there is a post on here that mentions something about a relatives car being parked on pages lane the day of the murders, ill have another look for the post.



Online Kaldin

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There's a lot of stuff in Robert Boutflour's diary about drugs - something to do with the grandson of Mrs Foakes.



Offline Elizabeth

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Carry2, Perhaps we are thinking of the same person  ;)



Offline mike tesko

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like i said in my earlier post if there was a 3rd person they would have known about the religious beliefs of june an d sheila with the bible being heavily involved, and only a person closer to home would know that. i think there is a post on here that mentions something about a relatives car being parked on pages lane the day of the murders, ill have another look for the post.
----------------------------
Yes, a car belonging to a distant relative who was working on the farm at that time - this person took a tractor back to Osea Road caravan park that night, leaving his vehicle parked up outside whf, overnight...


Double circular marks found on the back of Ralph's neck? What could that possibly indicate, Mike?

Hi Elizabeth, There is more on this subject under a previous post titled "Circular Burn Marks on Back of Ralph Bambers Neck" see page 3. Its an interesting subject and in my view support "another" person theory!

A previous post 1 Feb from me read -

Scenario no. 3

Has a theory ever been put forward on two murders entering whf, JB and an accomplice - one taking the children out the other dealing with the parents, with Shelia then being held and forced into a suicide position?

One using the loaded .22 Anchutz (10 bullets accounted to have been fired from this weapon) at whf and the other using what "Mike Tesko" has previously posted on and refers to as a "unique weapon", this weapon being found in the area by someone shortly after the murders and handed in to the police. Could this weapon have fired the other 15 bullets?

Burn marks on the back of Nevills neck apparently matching the barrel configuration of the unusual .22 rifle barrel over a shotgun barrel.

Hi Newbury1, thanks for that! I will check the post out now.

There was speculation at the time that this was an execution style murder by hitmen. This was one of a number of theories that was being discussed by the locals.

I'm not sure there is anything in it myself.

As far as the drug connections went around Tollesbury back then, from what I'm aware, it was never on the scale of operations that led to the shoot-up in Rettendon some years later.

I find myself visualising proceedings again, and as I do so, it seems a more likely scenario with Shelia at the trigger.

Two hitmen....Shelia in a state of wildness...or cool and calculated Jeremy? Or, a cool and calculated Jeremy accompanied by McDonald?

Second option ticks the most boxes still for me. 

I can see why you would come to the conclusion that Sheila was the killer, it does make logical sense. I can't help but think otherwise, though. But of course, i could be wrong. Thanks for your input!

Offline Elizabeth

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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...

Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...

and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf

Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.

If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.

What could have been their motive?

I can think of one  :-X The same motive that has been discussed in relation to something else. Sorry if i am being vague here; i would like to offer my theory but i am not sure how much you can say without getting into trouble, if you get my meaning?  ;)
« Last Edit: Today at 05:30 PM by Elizabeth »

Online Kaldin

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Police find a den in a nearby copse, where someone had been sleeping rough, around the time of the shootings...

Here is yet another twist in the tale, of who might have been responsible, for killing the family...

and didnt the police also say mike that they saw a scruffy hunched up figure walking away from the back of whitehouse farm, while they were there. i cant understand why the police didnt stop and take him into custody for questioning at that point. or at least try and trace him later to ask why he was on the grounds at whf

Hmm, most interesting! Perhaps the idea of a third-party carrying out the shootings is not so far-fetched after all. I have been pondering this theory quite a lot lately (with reason, of course), and the more i think about it, the more it does add up (i am thinking specifically of one or more individuals when i say this.) It certainly IS possible. I know everything points to Sheila having committed the murders, but now i am convinced that "other persons" may have actually carried them out. If so, then the person(s) in question thought they had got away with the perfect crime.

If there was another person then I guess that person has got away with the perfect crime.

What could have been their motive?

I can think of one  :-X The same motive that has been discussed in relation to something else. Sorry if i am being vague here; i would like to offer my theory, but i am not sure how much you can say without getting into trouble, if you get my meaning?  ;)

I understand that. It should be remembered that many people associated with this case are still alive and the libel laws could apply.

Motives for murder usually include money, revenge, hatred, or the desire to stop someone spilling the beans about something.

Offline Elizabeth

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You're exactly right, Kaldin, on both counts. I could be way off track here with this "third-party" theory (though after reading a lot about this case, it all adds up in my mind). But the reason i bought it up was because, if i am correct, i would hate to see the person (or persons) responsible get away with such a heinous crime, just as much as seeing an innocent man incarcerated for a crime in which he didn't commit.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:54 PM by Elizabeth »